I have an idea about all of this were talking about now.


We hate being "over runned" bye others (in this matter many disagree with the council about sasch)

Here it comes


"council will decide if someone behaves badly and then post here on clown site, what has happend and so on and so on" They talk to the person/s and see what has happend (talk to everyone involved) if they think this is a call for being kicked/demoted they set up a VOTE on this site about that matter.


The voters are clowns us that is and not only council.

Then everyone can decide what happens to him/her.

Any input is gladly taken here.

/sign

aye Pagor, thats the way to adress issues like this imo

Makes a lot of sense

This cannot be Pagor posting!! Who hijacked his login!?!?!

i like this to

lol stfu both of you !



No lets let the WHOLE comunity decide .

Both council will feel a lil better and all others aswell, cause how easy is it to judge a friend ? WHo can really tell him that he cant be a part of clown anymore, therefor i think this is a comunity issue !.

Yea it will be fun when you get public polls and realize that 76% of the guild wants you out of the guild......not....

A council pirmary job is to DO what the guild wants.

and take shit hard decition when they are called for.....im pretty happy im not in a council...

Yes Afghan BUT still the guild has desided not just the council !


And perhaps there can be a mail voting of some sort (tought about the public thingy also)

i am just going to stay out of it and lvl myself and lithiana

ohh and take the enormous kickings in the TBC instances



maple

I think it would be a bad idea. It's in the nature of things like this that some problems have to be dealt with privately, and the decision made by a sub-committee as to whether to punish community members.

That said, the council decision post should contain more explanation for any action taken too. I think in this particular case that wasn't done too well, although I appreciate the difficulty in cases where the alleged bad behaviour took place on a teamspeak server or WoW channel where the words cannot be logged easily.

Hmmmmm...

Though I know the intentions are good, I have some issues with this solution. Affie expressed it very good in fact (guess he's out of beer).

So I would leave some freedom to the council. What does that mean?

1st Warning of bad behavior reported by other clowns or by council member: INTERNAL (no visibility for us)
2d Warning of sanction if no change (if the member did not listen to warning one): INTERNAL (no visibility for us)
3rd Advice on open board that council is thinking about kicking the member and provide explanation for it => GO PUBLIC. All can then react on this. I would not go for vote as it should then be mandatory and we don't want that. I would just have the word of people defending the "to be excluded" one.

But the Council should be trusted by the CLOWNs, reason why they can act on their own. When something goes wrong and that people don't agree with the council, we can always propose a new vote for council and for a reorganisation. After all change does sometimes provide good things. Nevertheless one should never underestimate the work done by the council

So let's say I partially agree with you.

One of the general ideas of a council is to have it do background work, to present ideas, changes and whatnot to the (game specific) members so they can have their say.

This is the innocent intention of a council.

well atleast were talking about a solution now so i think we won a lil victory anyway


Anyway as i said feedback is always good

Another solution would be that Pagor apply for Council...
...
...
..
.
[Corny turns around and madly run waving his arms above his head] RUN FOR YER LIVES!!!!

lol

Lord_afghan wrote:

Yea it will be fun when you get public polls and realize that 76% of the guild wants you out of the guild......not....

LOOOOOL That s a HUGE comment! LOLOLOL

Ye, Nice idea Pagor

Perhaps people will behave if they know they will be voted for if they missbehave ?


*chuckles*

So, are you applying??????

lol i was talking about Being voted for (kicked from the guild thingy, you know )


Yoiu think me being a Councilor will make peole behave ? haha

Dunno if they'll behave... But I know they'll be scared!!!!

lol look at me and say that i look like a nice guy ?

Is it really you on the pic???? Dang I thought it was John Merrick!

Ohh man i will now kill you when i get my hands around your neck !

Thought more seriously about the vote thing. In fact the fact I was exposed to such system, and that it pretty hurt my feelings, helped me in this

Vote is ok as long as people voting aren't anonymous. Why?

Let's take a simple example:
I behave like a bad boy, eating all the guild cakes before the RL meeting (someone did that I think ), using Crow's pet as sex toy and having a laugh a Gloom as he needs a cane to walk because of his old age . The council warns me, spank me with a herring but I just ignore all they are saying. Then comes the time they decide to toss me in a fjord with bottles of Glögg filled with sand.

The council start a poll: "Should we toss Corny in the Fjord?" - Yes/No
89% of the CLOWNs vote yes. My fate is sealed!

Needless to say that I'm not quite happy with the idea of drowning due to bottles filled with sand. Dang, at least I should have the time to empty the bottles myself. People start comforting me with "ooooh, so sad you're gonna drown".

But what will happen if the vote was anonymous? Simple: whatever the mate online will tell you, you will always think that he might be one of those who voted for your death. You feel uncomfortable with that and will end up avoiding seeing all people that are in the guild.

=> Vote should not be anonymous. In the case we are discussing it would be for the "banning" of a member. I think the minimum we can ask is that people voting "kick" sign with their name. At least the guy facing the judgement will know who decided it and will have the freedom to decide if he understands or if he prefers breaking contact. And it would avoid the council to bear the full responsibility of sanctions. Afyer all, we're adults, even if CLOWNs

Let's think about some more

Quote::

I behave like a bad boy, eating all the guild cakes before the RL meeting (someone did that I think ), using Crow's pet as sex toy and having a laugh a Gloom as he needs a cane to walk because of his old age

Nasty man

I agree with you about the anonymous voting, but i'm not sure visible voting would work either, simply because people may not vote honestly if they know the person that they are voting 'against' can see that they have.

Sorry, I know this doesn't help at all, just my thoughts on it.

Quote::

I agree with you about the anonymous voting, but i'm not sure visible voting would work either, simply because people may not vote honestly if they know the person that they are voting 'against' can see that they have.

My thoughts too Slin, I think either way we're stuffed on that one. I don't see any way of getting around the problem that ppl are going to feel uncomfortable in a guild that has (at least in part) tried to kick them, whether they know exactly who it was or not.

Honestly I think this would be up to the individual involved to be strong enough to take this kind of 'criticism' and deal with it honorably and without predjudice against those who may have instigated the action against them. As has been said before (by Affie mostly) sometimes these s**t descisions are necessary and have to be made.

Well Perhaps 3 options

1 = Yes

2 = No

3 = I wish for the council to decide that matter.

Either way we all get to vote and cant say we got overunned.


Just some toughts

I want to set a date on when i will have the discussion on TS with the council and i also would like to have two other CLOWNs with us on TS.

Edit: and i promise that i will behave the best i can, but only if i do not get provoked.


(i cant bite on TS you know, you'll be safe)

Kicking out of the guild is a really serious matter. I think that voting a yes on that does require a name. Because if I condemn someone to be banished, it's part of this decision to say "I do". Otherwise it's too easy to say yes and then just say you're sorry...

I don't quite understand the point of people saying that the council decide because some might feel bad to vote a yes. First, if they do feel bad, they should not vote yes and remain neutral. Then it's a bit too easy to say that the council is responsible for the kick and to wash your hands saying "I didn't take the decision".

Why named? I dunno how I can explain this without bringing the example on the table, which I don't want So I'll try to find another one, that is happening at work. Both things really made me feel sick for some time.

I'm a Project Manager and was supposed to go for sen ior project management. Due to "concflict of interest" I have to move from team. The manager of the team is in fact a close friend and it's difficult for him to manage me which is understandable. We discussed this (hot discussion!) and we decided it was better to stay friend and split our areas of work. Then in fact I came in the first line for critics... Meaning: free target for anyone, don't leave a name... Result of it was: I am not even a PM anylonger. I have to go do some shit technical work that might get better in the future ("We'll see how you do"). Decision is taken by top management that never followed what I was doing and based its decision on this no name feedback system. And now I have tons of people coming to my office saying "I heard the news! Sooooo sorry for you! I don't get it, you were really doing a great job". Amongst those, some have probably said very bad things on me, that ended up in a sanction. I don't know who it was, and will never know. I started searching for a new job even if I continue smiling saying "Oh, it might be a great challenge". Once gone I will never speak to any of my colleagues here again cause there will always be a doubt.

What can you learn with that: Saying top decide isn't helping much and puts all the bad work on the top table (I think the council should be used for better things than that). No name voting isn't helping much either. Voting with name while giving the opportunity to people to other to disagree (in the way "No, don't kick him, he's a great guy") seems for me the best way to go. And if someone votes yes, it's also good to say why. This way you learn, you grow. Getting kicked again from another guild for the same reason would be sad. The only think we must be sure is that: no reaction and argumentation can be done on the vote subject. We can find way to do this. And if I decide to vote for a kick, I would be ready to discuss with the person and say why I did so. Maybe I could change my mind, maybe not. But I would always leave a door open...

Hope it helps understand my point. Reactions please... C'mon... Hurry... Bored at work atm

Out of subject: Sasch, please post all things related to your problem on the same post mate But I saw the request and I'll try to be there the day of the discussion.